10at10 Club
Main Discussion Area => KFOG's 10@10 => Topic started by: mshray on April 08, 2005, 09:24:36 AM
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Getting in early (in more ways than one, keep reading).
Mike is almost certainly the only one besides me who might have been listnening at 6:45 this morning, but if you were you would have heard Dave reading the first part of an email from me that I sent them yesterday:
Hi Dave, Peter, Renee & Greg,
This morning I heard the ad for "Lennon - The Musical", and I was thinking about the whole Lennon vs. McCartney thing. Then you guys played back a call from a Foghead who brought up the Moss Brothers & Dave said of the younger brother, "He was 'The Lennon'." This leads me to believe that Dave & I probably disagree somewhat in our interpretations of Beatle-ology.
It's a common view among rock critics then and now that Lennon was greater than McCartney, and it would seem that Dave is in that camp. I think that there are few, if any, ways that Lennon can be considered superior, and in fact this interpretation is mainly due to two things that have nothing to do with the music: Lennon dying tragically before his time & McCartney being blamed for instigating the Beatles breakup.
He then said. "Mark goes on to make a very strong case for Paul as THE BEATLE. So, we do have some tickets for Lennon: The Musical, and what we need are two Fogheads to call in and debate, one for Paul & one for John."
They then had a very reasonable & non-competitive debate from two guys (of course I called, but no success getting through), and in the end they let them both have tix, and they are going WITH DAVE!. But it's just as well I didn't call in, because the tix are for the Sunday matinee on April 17, which is probably right about the time I'll be in Seattle taking Gaz back to the airport after his gig at the Experience Music Project.
Anyway, as you can see from the remainder of my email, I did NOT claim that Paul was THE BEATLE although I fully understand why Dave, for radio purposes, said so. Here's the rest of what I wrote:
Obviously the cannonization that comes with an early demise (Marilyn Monroe, James Dean, JFK, etc.) is an inherent part of Pop Culture. Dying young is almost always a good career move, and if McCartney had had the good sense to beat Lennon to the Pearly Gates we might not be having this debate.
But then again maybe we would, because it has always seemed, even going back to the late 60's, that the critics preferred Lennon. Partly I think this was because of the working class/middle class dichotomy betwen him & McCartney (especially true in the UK). Partly it was because of his anti-war activism. Based solely on the writing credits of the Beatles songbook, though, it is not that easy to objectively show one was superior to the other, but that interpretation persists. And it persists largely because, in 1970, McCartney shocked the world when he released his first solo album and stated that he intended to focus on his solo career. Recriminations abounded then & I think most people today believe that McCartney acted selfishly to end the Beatles existence. Facts that were not widely known at the time* do not, however, bear this out. As Richie Unterberger writes in the Allmusic Guide: "Although McCartney received much of the blame for the split, it should be remembered that he had done more than any other member to keep the group going since Brian Epstein's death, and that each of the other Beatles had threatened to leave well before McCartney's departure."
If record sales and chart positions post-Beatles are any indicator, McCartney certainly can't be judged inferior to Lennon. Although I will grant you that if they are to be judged by only one song, then probably "Imagine" tops anything single thing McCartney did. I also think that the peculiarities of 'the Me Decade' greatly benefitted Lennon's image more than McCartney's. If Lennon's "Lost Weekend" (during which he left Yoko & spent most of a year & a half in LA whole-heartedly engaged in substance abuse) occurred in any other moral climate it would not have been so easily shrugged off, and it may well have tarnished his reputation permanently. Conversely McCartney might not have been seen as quite so uncool for he unabashed devotion to his own wife.
I think musically, when the Beatles were together, Lennon & McCartney were far greater than the sum of the parts, and each benefitted equally from their collaboration with the other. I feel anyone who does think that Lennon was greater is including many outside factors in their judgment, and if that includes Dave then I must respectfully say, "I disagree, sir."
*Ringo quit for a few days during the White Album sessions, George did likewise in the beginning of the Let It Be sessions, and Lennon threatened to quit more than once, the last time being in late 1969.
Thanks for reading this, feel free to use it if you'd like.
Mark Schroeder
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Can hardly wait, 1967!
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Haven't read Mark's lengthy discourse on the Beatles (yay) yet, but I lookforward to doing so.
But had to drop the word that Dave just mentioned at the end of the Annie Lamott segment that today's set would be "a great 1967 set"--cool!!
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Dave just spilled the beans: 1967 today! Yay!!
sadly, I was on BART @ 6:45 so I didn't hear Mark's letter or what came after.
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Haven't read Mark's lengthy discourse on the Beatles (yay) yet, but I lookforward to doing so.
But had to drop the word that Dave just mentioned at the end of the Annie Lamott segment that today's set would be "a great 1967 set"--cool!!
Hey Urth, have we already hit 1967 in 2005? If so that means we got more 67-68-69 than 71-72-73. Go figure!
Ooooh..."Helen Wheels" on DDT right now.
Yesterday nobody bit on my challenge to tell what the 'J.J.' in J.J. Cale stands for (it's Jean-Jacques!), but here's another: What's the etymology of the idiom 'Hell On Wheels'?
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OMGWTFLOL! "Pata Pata"!!! Instant BOS from me.
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Mark, I love your essay, although I have to point out one thing you didn't bring up: lyrical content. Part of Lennon's crit-cred was his love of wordplay (which sometimes devolved into word salad, as on "I Am the Walrus," but oh well); Paul's lyrics were often seen, fairly or no, as trite.
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Listen for Miriam Makeba sounding like a cat whose tail was just smooshed by a rocking chair -- at the end of the second verse.
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That said, BOS! It's Pata-Pata Time!
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Paul's lyrics were often seen, fairly or no, as trite.
What?! The man who wrote "Wonderful Christmastime"? Trite?! Surely, you jest!
Heh. And don't call you "Shirley".
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Listen for Miriam Makeba sounding like a cat whose tail was just smooshed by a rocking chair -- at the end of the second verse.
And sounding like Starvin' Marvin from South Park throughout :wink:
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I WAS listening to KFOG this morning at 6:45 and I heard the tail end of that. Didn't know it was you (Mark) though and I didn't hear any of the call-ins. Good job getting your message through.
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Haven't read Mark's lengthy discourse on the Beatles (yay) yet, but I lookforward to doing so.
But had to drop the word that Dave just mentioned at the end of the Annie Lamott segment that today's set would be "a great 1967 set"--cool!!
Hey Urth, have we already hit 1967 in 2005? If so that means we got more 67-68-69 than 71-72-73. Go figure!
Nope, this is the first visit to 67. For the record, we have visited 68 twice, 69 three times, and 65 once. In the latter trio, we've been to 1970 twice and 71 and 72 once each, so your theory still holds: more visits to the 60s than the first three years of the 70s. Don't know whether to laugh or cry.
Ooooh..."Helen Wheels" on DDT right now.
Yesterday nobody bit on my challenge to tell what the 'J.J.' in J.J. Cale stands for (it's Jean-Jacques!), but here's another: What's the etymology of the idiom 'Hell On Wheels'?
Easy. Helen Wheels was the McCartney's Land Rover. Like Martha was their sheepdog.
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VHM Stevie
BOS2, "Let It ALL Hang Out", Baby!
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Speaking of word salad, here's the Hombres giving a middle finger to Dylan.
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Mark, I love your essay, although I have to point out one thing you didn't bring up: lyrical content. Part of Lennon's crit-cred was his love of wordplay (which sometimes devolved into word salad, as on "I Am the Walrus," but oh well); Paul's lyrics were often seen, fairly or no, as trite.
Sure, I'll give you that, but at the same time his repeated misogyny ("Run For Your Life", "Getting Better All The Time", et al) is just as big a strike against his lyrical ability. Anyway, it was EXACTLY the compare/contrast of Lennon/McCartney as songwriters that made their whole oevre what it was. I think each of their solo careers shows compellingly that they truly missed each other's contributions.
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BOS3? 4? to Lovely Rita--gotta love '67. (After Stevie and the Hombres
And the Stones, in Brian Jones' heydey--Out of Time! BOS5! Dig that xylophone!
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BOS3 Stones, one of my top 10 RS tunes. Used effectively in the film Coming Home some 11 years later.
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From now on I will always play Strawberry Alarm Clock right after the Stones. God that sounded good.
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BOS2 to the Strawberry Alarm Clock, which I somehow never got tired of over the years.
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mmm... incense.... peppermints... strawberries...
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To quote the lead hottie in Russ Meyer's Beyond the Valley of the Dolls:
"It's the Strawberry Alarmclock!"
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"A yardstick for lunatics" - bigtime word salad :lol: I dig "Incense and Peppermints".
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Unrelated aside to MShray, since I'm too lazy to post in a different forum: a NY Times piece on the revitalization of St. Louis:
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/08/national/08louis.html?8hpib
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VHM Incense and Peppermints. Little to win but nothing to lose.
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I think I'm peaking, man!
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From now on I will always play Strawberry Alarm Clock right after the Stones. God that sounded good.
considering the difference in size of their respective catalogs... that should be very interesting. :wink:
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Unrelated aside to MShray, since I'm too lazy to post in a different forum: a NY Times piece on the revitalization of St. Louis:
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/08/national/08louis.html?8hpib
funny, a couple weeks ago The Economist has a real gloom & doom piece on St. Louis, and when I mentioned it to my dad he just said, "Yeah, Things are not good."
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VHM to Dick Shawn aka "L.S.D.", baby!
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And The Producers in its original Brooksified form! Dave put in some time editing this together, methinks.
Anyone who says this clip is going on too long gets slapped.
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The Producers. VHM
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And The Producers in its original Brooksified form! Dave put in some time editing this together, methinks.
Anyone who says this clip is going on too long gets slapped.
"Where did I go right?"
"Deutschland is happy and GAY!!!"
BOS#6 Simon & Garfunkel!
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VHM to Dick Shawn aka "L.S.D.", baby!
This is a FAB production piece... but as much as I hate to rain on Dave's parade (oh, hell I love being anal), The Producers was released in '68 per IMDB. Summertime, as I recall.
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Another strong S&G moment. This has been a very nice set and we've barely even touched Motown yet!
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And The Producers in its original Brooksified form! Dave put in some time editing this together, methinks.
BOS#6 Simon & Garfunkel!
Fabulous!
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And The Producers in its original Brooksified form! Dave put in some time editing this together, methinks.
Anyone who says this clip is going on too long gets slapped.
Need we doubt that you'll digitally archive this one, Urth?
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Anyone who says this clip is going on too long gets slapped.
For The Producers? I won't complain.
Leo: Maaax! He's wearing a dress...
Max: "...AND he looks lovely...
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Another strong S&G moment. This has been a very nice set and we've barely even touched Motown yet!
Cue the Supremes!
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And The Producers in its original Brooksified form! Dave put in some time editing this together, methinks.
Anyone who says this clip is going on too long gets slapped.
Need we doubt that you'll digitally archive this one, Urth?
Actually I'm supposed to be at the ballgame tonight (weather permitting). So if I could get some backup coverage, that'd probably be good. This is likely to get replayed at 7:00 (6:15?) at the beginning of the marathon, when I'm still dead to the world.
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Things go better with Nancy S!
and BOS4, the 'oo!
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Things go better with Nancy S!
and BOS4, the 'oo!
BOS #7 "I Can See For Miles"
I just picked up the double LP of The Who A Quick One/The Who Sell Out a couple of weeks ago. A great investment!
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1967, way cool.
And to weigh in on the Lennon vs McCartney issue from an old geezer point of view:
Picking Lennon has nothing to do with his tragic death. This was the opinion years before, before the lost weekend. It's the music, the lyrics, etc.
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Awesome set, but I think Pink Floyd is the winnah.
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Oooooo....See Emily Play! Now I think I'm peaking. Is this Syd Barret's first 10@10 appearance (in modern times anyway)?
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Awesome set, but I think Pink Floyd is the winnah.
Indeed, "See Emily Play", the BOS of BOS's.
Best '67 set evah!!
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And The Producers in its original Brooksified form! Dave put in some time editing this together, methinks.
Anyone who says this clip is going on too long gets slapped.
Need we doubt that you'll digitally archive this one, Urth?
Actually I'm supposed to be at the ballgame tonight (weather permitting). So if I could get some backup coverage, that'd probably be good. This is likely to get replayed at 7:00 (6:15?) at the beginning of the marathon, when I'm still dead to the world.
I just called Dave (& quite obviously I wasn't the only one) and he promised that it'll appear LAST!!!
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one morning, my clock radio woke me up, and this was playing (I was senior in high school) and, as Van would say, it 'stoned me.' And I was a pharmacological virgin then, but I was flying all day long. The song never left my head!
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Oooooo....See Emily Play! Now I think I'm peaking. Is this Syd Barret's first 10@10 appearance (in modern times anyway)?
Dave's played this before.
OH MY GOD!!! UP WITH PEOPLE!!! My folks had this album & we listend to it A LOT as kids.
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what a fuckin' great set!
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"Up With People"! ROTFL!
and here's our closer (?), Mr Wilson, Dave's all-time-fave single and "perfect pop record".
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BOS3 to the tragic Jackie W. A magnificent song, though it couldn't quite stand Rita Coolidge's evisceration some years later.
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what a fuckin' great set!
Agreed. Can't pick a winner. 10 way tie.
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Ooh, a sweet ending with Jackie Wilson, and a serious BOS contender too.
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And The Producers in its original Brooksified form! Dave put in some time editing this together, methinks.
Anyone who says this clip is going on too long gets slapped.
Need we doubt that you'll digitally archive this one, Urth?
Actually I'm supposed to be at the ballgame tonight (weather permitting). So if I could get some backup coverage, that'd probably be good. This is likely to get replayed at 7:00 (6:15?) at the beginning of the marathon, when I'm still dead to the world.
I just called Dave (& quite obviously I wasn't the only one) and he promised that it'll appear LAST!!!
CAN YOU CATCH THE REPLAY URTH? I can surely put it on cassette but really want CD. No more cassette in my car.
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BOS3 to the tragic Jackie W. A magnificent song, though it couldn't quite stand Rita Coolidge's evisceration some years later.
two completely different songs.
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BOS3 to the tragic Jackie W. A magnificent song, though it couldn't quite stand Rita Coolidge's evisceration some years later.
two completely different songs.
No, same song, two completely different versions. Or is that what you meant?
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And The Producers in its original Brooksified form! Dave put in some time editing this together, methinks.
Anyone who says this clip is going on too long gets slapped.
Need we doubt that you'll digitally archive this one, Urth?
Actually I'm supposed to be at the ballgame tonight (weather permitting). So if I could get some backup coverage, that'd probably be good. This is likely to get replayed at 7:00 (6:15?) at the beginning of the marathon, when I'm still dead to the world.
I just called Dave (& quite obviously I wasn't the only one) and he promised that it'll appear LAST!!!
OK, cool! I will try to drag my ass out by 8 or so and make sure I get it (wouldn't mind getting yesterday's set either).
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Shall we start a pool as to when the just-promo-ed marathon will actually start? Will KFOG dare to screw up 4 weeks in a row?
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what a fuckin' great set!
Agreed. Can't pick a winner. 10 way tie.
I fully agree. Best 67 set ever.
But now that Big Rick is playing the BOS winner during his show, will there be any more ties, let alone 10-way ties? I could maybe see him playing two songs, but I don't think he's gonna want to recreate the entire set.
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I guess the Big Rick Replay has obviated any chance of a 10-way tie.
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And The Producers in its original Brooksified form! Dave put in some time editing this together, methinks.
Anyone who says this clip is going on too long gets slapped.
Need we doubt that you'll digitally archive this one, Urth?
Actually I'm supposed to be at the ballgame tonight (weather permitting). So if I could get some backup coverage, that'd probably be good. This is likely to get replayed at 7:00 (6:15?) at the beginning of the marathon, when I'm still dead to the world.
I just called Dave (& quite obviously I wasn't the only one) and he promised that it'll appear LAST!!!
OK, cool! I will try to drag my ass out by 8 or so and make sure I get it (wouldn't mind getting yesterday's set either).
re: yesterday's set, YES PLEASE!
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[now that Big Rick is playing the BOS winner during his show, will there be any more ties, let alone 10-way ties? I could maybe see him playing two songs, but I don't think he's gonna want to recreate the entire set.
They are really starting to sound a bit desperate to get folks to listen outside of 10@10. I'm wondering how the Bone's latest format tweak will affect KFOG. Surely adding more Puddle of Mudd to the Bone's playlist will alienate some older listeners, who will possibly gravitate to KFOG?
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From a marketing POV, the station has been heavily promoting Dave and 10@10 via all other shows. Set's play 3x/week, Annalisa, Big Rick, sporadic ads. Wonder if ratings dropped at some point.
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BOS3 to the tragic Jackie W. A magnificent song, though it couldn't quite stand Rita Coolidge's evisceration some years later.
two completely different songs.
No, same song, two completely different versions. Or is that what you meant?
yes indeedily, that is what I meant. Jackie's version has such a 'love for life' aspect, and quite gospel in it's tone. Rita's is a languid, sexually relaxing sort of song. Totally different songs as far as how they would be applied in different situations.
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From a marketing POV, the station has been heavily promoting Dave and 10@10 via all other shows. Set's play 3x/week, Annalisa, Big Rick, sporadic ads. Wonder if ratings dropped at some point.
overall, KFOG's ratings went up a few tenths-of-a-point in the recent book, as did the Bone's. (the Bone actually had their Best. Book. Ever. which made the format tweak kinda puzzling.) But clearly KFOG does best in the mornings, and while I can't blame 'em for wanting to make it carry over, it's a bit... unsubtle to keep hammering it home.
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They are really starting to sound a bit desperate to get folks to listen outside of 10@10.
I've been having those same thoughts, ever since Annalisa's bonus track thing came along a couple of weeks ago. (And I wonder how Annalisa feels about having to use the show before hers to help boost her ratings?)
But I guess that's how marketing works these days: leverage your strongest products to create carryover to the weaker ones. And 10@10 has been KFOG's signature franchise for years now. Are we destined to one day hear "all 10@10s all the time" on KFOG? Or will they call it K-MOREY by then?
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From a marketing POV, the station has been heavily promoting Dave and 10@10 via all other shows. Set's play 3x/week, Annalisa, Big Rick, sporadic ads. Wonder if ratings dropped at some point.
overall, KFOG's ratings went up a few tenths-of-a-point in the recent book, as did the Bone's. (the Bone actually had their Best. Book. Ever. which made the format tweak kinda puzzling.) But clearly KFOG does best in the mornings, and while I can't blame 'em for wanting to make it carry over, it's a bit... unsubtle to keep hammering it home.
When I was chatting with Greg at Great America (Spring Break) I mentioned that it seemed like more of a BONE event than a KFOG event, especially the previous year. He said yeah, and when I asked him if there was any sibling rivalry or anything between the sister stations he said, "Well, we're all supposed to be one big happy family & mutually supportive, but yeah, there's some resentment. They just don't have the numbers (ratings)."
As for the KSJO listeners thrown out into the wilderness, where else they gonna go besides The BONE? They sure as hell aren't going to enjoy Live 105 much.
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From a marketing POV, the station has been heavily promoting Dave and 10@10 via all other shows. Set's play 3x/week, Annalisa, Big Rick, sporadic ads. Wonder if ratings dropped at some point.
overall, KFOG's ratings went up a few tenths-of-a-point in the recent book, as did the Bone's. (the Bone actually had their Best. Book. Ever. which made the format tweak kinda puzzling.) But clearly KFOG does best in the mornings, and while I can't blame 'em for wanting to make it carry over, it's a bit... unsubtle to keep hammering it home.
When I was chatting with Greg at Great America (Spring Break) I mentioned that it seemed like more of a BONE event than a KFOG event, especially the previous year. He said yeah, and when I asked him if there was any sibling rivalry or anything between the sister stations he said, "Well, we're all supposed to be one big happy family & mutually supportive, but yeah, there's some resentment. They just don't have the numbers (ratings)."
As for the KSJO listeners thrown out into the wilderness, where else they gonna go besides The BONE? They sure as hell aren't going to enjoy Live 105 much.
here are the recent ratings:
http://www.radioandrecords.com/RRRatings/DetailsPage.aspx?MID=228&RY=2005&RQ=1&MP=2&OTHER=2&MN=San%20Francisco&MS=CA&MR=4&12P=5850900&UP=3/30/2005%2012:00:00%20AM&SU=CM&BPER=7.5&HPER=17.7&OPER=&NSD=4/27/2005%2012:00:00%20AM&CE=0
interestingly, both the Bone and NYC's K-Rock tweaked their formats on the same day and are now quite similar, but whereas The Bone added newer stuff to skew younger, K-Rock (which was sorta KSJO-like) added older stuff ('80s hair bands and overplayed "classics" like Queen) to skew older. So they arrived at the same place from diff directions. Apparently some experts see what K-Rock did as a future trend: while conventional wisdom says stations need to keep going after younger listeners (who are more easily influenced by advertising), there is now a school of thought that says: younger listeners are abandoning radio, don't have the habit of listening and are becoming "the iPod generation". There will eventually be a majority of people in the marketplace who never listen to radio, at least not to hear music. So in order to increase your ratings cume, you gotta hold on to us older folks. :wink: